Expert ADHD Strategies for Children and Families

ADHD treatment and assessment with a clinical psychologist.

Jessica Robb Mazzant 0:00
Part of good treatment is doing ongoing high quality assessment. So you are checking in with your client the the entirety of the time that you’re working with them to make sure that they are growing in the direction that they want to grow. They’re moving in the direction that they want to move.

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky 0:19
Welcome back to Heal Your Roots Podcast. On today’s episode, we have Dr. Jessica Robbins and join us clinical psychologist sharing her unique approaches and philosophy around helping children and families dealing with ADHD. If you’re a parent or you have a family member with ADHD, you’re definitely going to want to tune into today’s episode. I’m thrilled for today’s guest, Dr. Jessica Rob Mazon. Thank you so much for being with us today, Jessica.

Jessica Robb Mazzant 0:46
Oh, you’re welcome. Thank you for having me. Absolutely.

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky 0:49
So before we kind of go into all your specialties and everything that you do, can you share a little bit about how you got into the field, what made you want to become a clinical psychologist?

Jessica Robb Mazzant 1:02
Sure. Um, so I was a psychology undergraduate. And in between towards the end of my junior year of undergrad, through my email, I got this advertisement for an internship. And the internship was to work in a program called the summer treatment program, which was a really intensive behavior modification and social skills training program for kids with ADHD. And when I say ADHD, I mean Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder, I’ll use that acronym from now on. And I thought, well, you know, this, this seems pretty cool, like something I might be interested in. So I applied, and I feel really fortunate that I was able to get that internship. And so I moved up to the summer treatment program location, which at that time was in Buffalo, New York. And I went through the training, and I started doing this treatment program. And I felt hard and fast and love. I just, I, I enjoyed working with those kids so much. I enjoyed the just professionalism of all of the supervisors that I worked with, I took a special class with the developer of the summer treatment program, Bill Pelham, he offered a summer course on ADHD. And I just remember leaving that summer thinking like, this could be my work, like, I get paid for doing this. And so for the next 12 years, I worked in that program, I ended up applying to graduate school to a doctoral training program in clinical psychology, and the developer of the summer treatment program, they’ll tell them was my was my graduate mentor, and, and really my, my life mentor, and it just that experience had such a positive change, and, you know, change the trek trajectory of my career and really pointed me in a direction that I’ve been so so grateful to have kept moving in.

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky 3:15
That’s incredible. So if you didn’t get that email, who knows?

Jessica Robb Mazzant 3:21
That would have more of an influence in my life. I’m responsive to emails, but But it actually happened.

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky 3:29
Wow, that’s really awesome. I actually love working. I don’t work with any kids. But I love working with adults who have ADHD because full disclosure I do as well. And just like, learning myself about it, helping clients there’s so much information about and it’s so intriguing. So it’s really awesome that you spent all that time at this. It sounds like a really comprehensive program that allowed you to learn so much and help so many people.

Mental health treatment and supervision.

Jessica Robb Mazzant 3:54
Yeah, it is. It’s such an incredible program. And about six weeks ago, the developer of the summer treatment program, Bill Pelham passed away. And so that’s been a just a huge loss, not only personally, but really for for our field. But one of the things that it’s so incredible is that, you know, he influenced not only me, but so many people that are very committed to keeping high quality research, high quality treatment happening. For families that really need it.

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky 4:28
I’m so sorry for your loss. So

Jessica Robb Mazzant 4:29
thank you. I appreciate your excitement. Yeah, absolutely.

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky 4:33
And so where are you currently working now? Like, what is what is the professional career for you right now?

Jessica Robb Mazzant 4:40
So I am an associate teaching professor at Florida International University. And I work specifically in a program a graduate program called the professional counseling psychology program where the PCP program for short, and the gentleman that I mentioned, Bill Pelham, Not only did he start the summer treatment program, but he was also really instrumental in helping to launch the PCP program as it currently is. And one of the things that’s kind of unique and distinct and important about that program is that it has a real training emphasis on evidence based practices. So techniques and practices that have been shown through, you know, good quality research that they really provide and result in a meaningful impact on on clients and families.

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky 5:34
So this guy has been all over.

Jessica Robb Mazzant 5:36
It really, yeah. And so I’m

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky 5:38
leaving an impact on the right. Yeah.

Jessica Robb Mazzant 5:41
And I’ve been working in the PCP program at FIU since 2012.

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky 5:48
Oh, wow. Okay. So over a decade, over

Jessica Robb Mazzant 5:52
a decade, yeah.

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky 5:55
That’s awesome. So you’re working with students. And then I know, you mentioned you work at a private practice as well.

Jessica Robb Mazzant 6:03
So the private practice that I work at, I work in a in a part time capacity there, but it’s called South Florida integrative medicine, and it’s in Coral Gables, Florida. So in the south Florida area, and I think what I love about fim, I apparently really like acronyms. A lot is, you know, it’s an interdisciplinary practice. So there is a kya tree, there are psychiatric nurse practitioners, psychologists, mental health counselors. And in really having such a broad range of professionals there allows us to do really comprehensive and personalized treatment for the folks that we work with. So I do see some clients through SFM. But I also do quite a lot of clinical supervision. So what clinical supervision is, is where you are a sounding board, and you help to give advice to developing mental health clinicians, so clinicians who don’t yet have their independent license to practice, I get the fortune of meeting with them routinely to, to make sure that they’re feeling supported and secure in the work that they’re doing. And I really love that.

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky 7:13
molding, the young therapists, next generation. Supervisors are so crucial. I mean, I loved all my supervisors, it’s such an important part of the growth in the learning process of becoming a therapist or any kind of mental health clinician.

Jessica Robb Mazzant 7:28
I agree. Yeah, they can have such a tremendous impact on us.

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky 7:33
So you have a lot of different Yeah, parently a lot of Yeah, but all very important ones.

Jessica Robb Mazzant 7:41
Yeah, I really, I’m, I’m incredibly fortunate that I get to be involved in so many cool things.

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky 7:50
And so I know, you mentioned that you fell in love with working with children, teens with ADHD? Can you share a little bit about your approach of assessment, like kind of like from the beginning, when you meet with a client and their family, and taking them through that process?

Assessment and treatment approaches for ADHD.

Jessica Robb Mazzant 8:06
Sure. So, you know, I think one thing about assessment that is really important to remember and to consider is that it shouldn’t be distinct from treatment. And what I mean by that is, of course, there’s a period of time where you’re getting to know a client, whether that’s a kid, adolescent, adult, a family, however you define client, you have to get to know them, get to get to understand them understand what it is that they want to, they want to work on. But part of good treatment is doing ongoing, high quality assessment. So you are checking in with your clients through the the entirety of the time that you’re working with them to make sure that they are growing in the direction that they want to grow. They’re moving in the direction that they want to move. So I want to throw that caveat out there. But really, I think what you meant was like at the beginning, what are some things that are important? How do you connect, connect with a kid or connect with an adolescent and their family? So kind of staying in the world of ADHD, one thing that is important to do is to to really determine not just what symptoms are present for this particular kid. But how do those symptoms impact their life? One of the things that I think is absolutely essential is that the focus of our interventions are really tied to the problems that this client is having in their daily life functioning. And that we are really focused on trying to develop what we call adaptive skills. So strategies or techniques that the person can do to better adapt to the demands of their life in a way that are that’s going to Help them make meaningful connections with other people be successful in their environments. That really, that shouldn’t be the focus of treatment. And so it also needs to be the focus of assessment, we have to really make sure that we are explicitly asking families and kids and adolescents, where they want to grow, what areas do they identify as being their biggest struggles? And how can we design interventions to help them adapt to the struggles that they’re having. And that really is the central focus of both assessment and treatment, not just trying to eliminate symptoms.

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky 10:34
Gotcha. Now, that’s really important. And I think that’s great to think about, because everyone is so different, right? They might all have very similar symptoms, but it may not be an issue for one child, because of whatever reason, maybe their family or the way they are in school, or that’s just a different kind of strength for them, versus someone else who might be having the same symptom, but as struggling because of the structure of their environment. I’ve

Jessica Robb Mazzant 10:58
really, yeah, I so value, what you just said, You’re right, you can have two people with the same symptom list. But they’re going to struggle in different areas, or in different ways, they’re going to have different sets of strengths. And so you really have to approach each person, it’s just that as an individual, that you need to make sure that you are understanding to help drive drive the treatment choices that you make.

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky 11:26
And I’m also wondering, maybe the priorities of like the family or the school system, right? Where even if they are struggling or not, which one is more of a priority work on versus the other as well?

Jessica Robb Mazzant 11:39
Yeah, absolutely. And I think really working with the family unit, in particular is something that I enjoy, but it’s for that reason, you can’t treat everything all at once. And so you have to make a determination about, you know, what skill can they learn, that would have the biggest impact on their life, or what area of their life is causing them the most distress or the most impairment and making those choices collaboratively about this is where we’re going to start based upon what that client and their family is relaying.

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky 12:11
And so well, what do you find are the most common, whether it’s like the issues or areas, they’re struggling, and then that the family is coming in to treat like the things that are standing out, like, hey, my kid is struggling with this, this or that? This is why we’re coming to you for assessment or treatment and help.

ADHD impact on academic performance, peer relationships, and family dynamics.

Jessica Robb Mazzant 12:29
Yeah, that’s a great question. Because it’s very infrequent that families actually come in and say, you know, I think my kid has this symptom and this system, symptom they might meet, you know, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual definition of this disorder like that, that never happens. What families are coming in saying is that my kid is struggling, and multiple areas, and I’m worried about their future. So if I had to boil it down to three kind of main areas where I see most struggle, oftentimes, kids are struggling in school, not that they are necessarily failing, or, or are unable to learn. In fact, many folks with ADHD have have really developed skill sets and are really, really bright. But they may lack organizational skills or understanding how to prioritize, for example. So oftentimes, we see kids that are academically underperforming compared to where they’re likely capable of performing, or their grades are suffering because of things like they can’t structure their time to finish a long term project, or what can sometimes be the most frustrating for older kids, they did the homework, but between doing the homework and arriving at that new location school, it’s gotten misplaced along the way. And you’d be surprised how often I hear that even with electronically submitted. Still, there is some barrier there. So that’s absolutely a domain, I’m going to ask about necess and see how how that kid is doing. This second area is going to be peer functioning. And many kids with ADHD struggle in their their peer social groups. And what we know is that having just one reciprocal friendship, so when I say a reciprocal friendship, what I mean by that is the kid says, hey, you know, John is my friend and John says, Yep, I’m this kid’s friend, they both say, Hey, this is a real meaningful connection between the two of us. Having just one or a couple of those has this profoundly protective impact on kids. But oftentimes, kids with ADHD struggle to kind of get past that initial friendship stage and to that reciprocal or friendship. And there’s a lot of reasons why they might struggle. Sometimes kids with ADHD have difficulties with impulse control. But a lot of times kids with ADHD can learn from their environment and can develop some troublesome reactions or troublesome patterns and how they interact with people. And so they are more at risk for being socially rejected from their peers, because of things like high rates of interruption or not being able to follow conversations or things of that nature. And so really, again, working on that, like skill development, to empower them to be able to learn some long lasting friendship skills, has a big impact on them. And then, yeah, last but not least, at all, the third area is really family functioning. So within families, it’s very common for parents to report that they feel like they’re not the best versions of themselves, or they’re not the parents that they want to be. They’re struggling in a lot of ways with their kids. And so the dynamics within the household have an old it in a way that doesn’t really feel good to anybody. And parents report that they, they’re using harsher kind of interactions with their kids than they they want to be doing. And they feel like they have to do that, because that’s the only thing that seems to work or to motivate their kiddos. And we know that we’re living in an environment for a long period of time that’s marked by these high levels of coercion or hostility isn’t great for kids, it’s not good for their development. And so really working on changing family dynamic patterns, is something that we check in on and definitely focus on in treatment, if needed.

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky 16:50
So these are three huge areas. And as you’re speaking, I’m like, oh my god, it’s like the story of my life. But it’s so true. Makes sense. When you think about if you’re struggling, and all these three areas, and you’re a child or a teenager, like this is your whole life, right? You’re in school, or you’re at home, or you’re with friends. And if you’re not with friends, or you’re feeling rejected, right, I’m sure that lowers your self esteem can cause social anxiety, you might have more lower self esteem, because you’re not doing well at school or you’re constantly getting reprimanded than at home, your parents feel like that negative reinforcement is the only way to get you to do something. Yep. Like, everywhere you go, you’re getting some kind of like negative reaction or response to you. It’s really tough, it’s

Jessica Robb Mazzant 17:37
really tough. And you nailed it when you said it can affect a person’s self esteem. It can also affect their sense of self efficacy, or their belief in themselves that they are capable of doing things because they’ve had so many messages sent to them that they are screwing up in some way. And that’s a tough message to receive from so many different areas of your life, for so many for so long. That’s a tough thing not to internalize. It’s also really common for kids with ADHD to have something that we call rejection sensitivity, so they can become really attuned to perceiving or expecting rejection. And so for a subgroup of kids with ADHD, they can react in really big ways, when they perceive that they’re going to be rejected, or that they are rejected. And sometimes they preempt it. And so rejection or kind of pushing back against a person wasn’t intended by by someone, but it’s perceived that way by that kiddo. And then they have this big response. So it almost becomes like a self fulfilling prophecy.

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky 18:51
Yeah, it’s you’re trying to control it. So like, I know, I’m gonna get rejected in her. I’m just gonna get ahead of it. That’s coming. Yep. And then it just creates more of and then and then it kind of confirms the thought like, of course, I was gonna get rejected. See, this is what happens. Yeah, yeah. And so when you’re meeting with kids, is it? Do they share like these concerns? Or is this more from your family with the family saying, like, hey, they’re struggling in all these areas? And then the kids are sharing this with you, too? Yeah.

Treating children with social skills deficits through intensive training and positive reinforcement.

Jessica Robb Mazzant 19:21
Well, you’re, you’re asking a question that I don’t know if you’re even realizing you’re asking for it anyway. So the younger that the kid is, what we know is that really kind of intensive social skills training and intensive behavior therapy is the treatment approach that works best for those kids. Now, when I say behavior therapy, I do want to clarify something I’m not trying to like force or pressure kids into like, a mode of responding or a way, you know, a really restricted way of responding or being but really until Teaching them through the way that I react to them skills that they can use in other settings that’s going to help them to adapt better. So let me give you an example of what I mean. Let’s say I’m, I’m running a social skills group with kids, I might have that group of kids play a sports game. And the reason that I would make them play that sports game is because sports actually require the use of a lot of different social skills, you have to be able to communicate effectively, you have to be able to cooperate. So work with your your fellow teammates, you have to participate in the game in a way that is meaningful. And yeah, you use a lot of validation skills, you’re like checking in with your teammates, you know, great play there like that you’re looking ahead. And so we’ll play a game like that. But one of the things as the therapist that I’m doing is I’m looking for all of those things I just mentioned, to occur. And when they occur, I really reinforced that in those kids, I’m like, Hey, that was a great way of communicating with your with your teammate, did you say that skill? I’m gonna make up a name right now, did you see that skill that Andy did, this is why that was a good move. So I’m really trying to strengthen the likelihood that kids will continue to use those types of skills when they naturally occur. But I’m also providing some boundaries for the kids that are going to help them to be more successful when they’re not looking. So if a kid strikes out, during our baseball game, for example, and he throws his bat in anger, maybe that’s a really impulsive reaction that he has that comes from frustration. I’m going to talk with him about how that’s not the appropriate reaction. That’s not an example of good sportsmanship, and what can he do differently? And why would that different behavior, land him in a better in a better spot? So if when I say, the mod, or behavior modification, I’m really talking about a lot of like, intensive point of performance feedback. So these kids interesting.

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky 22:10
So I’m hearing a lot of positive reinforcement or like, point out all the things that you like that they’re doing that you want them to do more of? So they’re aware of that. Yep. And not necessarily negative reinforcement, but bringing to their attention that, hey, this is not appropriate. What could we

Jessica Robb Mazzant 22:27
do? Yeah, there’s a consequence, when misbehavior or really negative behavior does occur, but the consequences presented to them in a neutral way, in a factual way, it’s not intended to shame them, or to make them feel badly, but to be like, Hey, not okay. Or hey, not cool. So we do that a lot of different ways. Sometimes that type of feedback, sometimes it’s through something like a point loss if a kid is on a point system. But the consequence, that type of feedback is intended to be instructive. And really, when you set up a dynamic where there’s way more opportunity and appeal towards those positive pro social behaviors, kids start to drift in that direction, they just need the opportunity have a chance to understand where that attention is going to come from.

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky 23:16
I’m thinking about if they’re getting all these negative messages, and now you’re getting so many positive messages, someone is acknowledging all the things you’re doing well, it starts to feel really good. And now you’re chasing that feeling that makes you feel proud you feel accomplished by it, someone is telling you something good about you. So yeah, they want to lean into that way more. Yeah.

Jessica Robb Mazzant 23:36
When the only way for you to get acknowledgement or intention in your environment is through misbehavior, or you get it so much sometimes, without even really being conscious of it, people just lean into it. Because like, that’s how that’s how I understand that I interact with the world. But when you give kids an alternative than they have that alternative pathway to start to walk down.

ADHD treatment and social skills groups for children.

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky 23:58
And so something I know, with ADHD is difficulty with consistency. Right? So even if they’re leaning into this, they know this. If they struggle with the consistency piece, is that something you’re able to kind of help them with or like navigate that process? Or is that like an acceptance of like, this isn’t always going to show up this way? Well,

Jessica Robb Mazzant 24:21
that’s a great question. And you’re right, that consistency can be can be really difficult. And one of the things particularly when we’re talking about kids, or even when we’re talking about adolescents, I might tweak this answer a bit if we’re talking about adults, but I don’t think that consistency should solely be the child’s responsibility. I think we need to get them into a great habit. I think we need to teach them skills explicitly that are going to help them in their life. But I think that consistency piece falls upon the adults in our lives. We need to be working with the caregivers and the life of the kids teach In them how to respond differently, how to create those positive connection opportunities that we’re creating in therapy create those in the home setting, we need to work with the teachers that the kids are interacting with. So they have that same kind of dynamic. So yeah, the kid needs to show up for themselves, they need to show up with those skills that they’re learning, but other people in the life that the kid needs to show up to.

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky 25:24
So it sounds like you work with kids, if in a setting of other children, right, like this is like in a group to see how they interact and help everybody is that the most common way that you work with children, or is it like one on one as well,

Jessica Robb Mazzant 25:37
it’s not the most common way that most therapies work with kids, but particularly for kids with ADHD, we know that that approach lands a lot better, it works a lot better. And it results in better treatment gains than working with kids individually. That’s not to say that working with kids individually is never warranted, like, of course. But we do find that net social modeling, and giving them the opportunity to practice because if you think about it, for most kids, in the context of a family, it’s not just you, it’s a lot of people in a family. In a classroom, it’s not just you, it’s a lot of people in a classroom, in a Girl Scout troop, it’s not just you know, a lot of Girl Scout troop. So giving them the opportunity to practice in a social setting. It’s not solely, that they need to learn social skills, though many do. But that it’s giving them the opportunity to practice in an environment that’s more similar to what their life looks like. So yeah, that’s part of the reason why a lot of the work we do with kids is group based work.

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky 26:55
That’s really interesting. I didn’t, you know, as you say, to totally make sense, right? I mean, it’s a lot more experiential, if this is what they’re struggling with, instead of just talking about the thing, you go and do the thing and like live, you can correct it or work with it. And they can continue repeating it versus just talking about it one on one and then going out into the world and they forget, or in the moment, they don’t know how to use it, or the moment has passed. Right. So that’s, I really love that.

Jessica Robb Mazzant 27:24
Thank you. The other thing, and this is not our direct intention, but it can happen often is that we have kids in the group that become friends with each other, and they understand each other at a level that maybe other kids don’t, because they’re dealing with such similar thing. And so we’ve had many lifelong friendships kind of born out of the summer treatment program, or the social skills groups that we run. And then it’s real meaningful feedback that they’re getting from their real life, friends, their real life peers, it’s really beautiful.

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky 27:59
There’s a lot of things happening here. They’re learning all this stuff, they’re actually making friends. And all of this is helping them gain more confidence, practicing all these skills that they can take back into school at home or other places. So it’s, it’s sustaining these life skills, it’s not just learning it, trying it a little bit doesn’t work. Let me try a different setting and may not work. But it is like continuing. Yeah.

Parenting strategies for children with ADHD.

Jessica Robb Mazzant 28:24
And you know, we’re talking a lot about these kind of social skills groups, or these behavior modification groups. One of the other aspects of treatment that I really love is doing what’s called behavioral parent training groups. So where you bring the parents of the kids together to same thing, learn skills to better support their kids in their home environments. And behavioral parent training can be done individually, or it can be done in a group. Personally, I love doing it in a group because they’ll see Elden communities, right there are many parents of kids with ADHD or their mental health issues can feel really isolated.

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky 29:04
I feel like it might almost be harder to work with the parents and the kids themselves.

Jessica Robb Mazzant 29:11
I think any teacher would say the same anybody who works with kids in any capacity can say, Georgia Gray, that’s probably.

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky 29:20
And so how do you how do you work with the parents? What are some things that you kind of teach them to do, because they’re the ones that have to reinforce this and keep the environment going, like you said, they have to be consistent with this practice in

Jessica Robb Mazzant 29:32
those groups. It’s kind of a combination of things. One, there are some skills that we teach parents, and a lot of these skills in isolation, feel maybe kind of small, but you take enough of these small skills and you stack them up and suddenly it accounts for a big change and how their parenting or how they’re interacting with their children. So an example of one type a skill that we might work on with parents is like how to use your attention in a way that’s meaningful. So a lot of parents, and I want to say this in a way I want to qualify it, I guess, is what I want to say. I don’t think that this happens, because anybody’s trying to, like, do poor parenting. But I think it just naturally unfolds. And just like kids learn from their, their environment, parents learn from their environment. But what can happen is that sometimes parents can be on the lookout for misbehavior. So when it happens, they’re like, Oh, see, there you go again, or, you know, a version, a version of that type of response. And then when kids, you know, are getting longer are playing nicely. And I can say this, because I’m a parent I know, for myself, is you’re like, who you have a moment where you’re, like, Don’t rock the boat things? Well, right now, there’s, they’re going swimmingly. And, you know, here and there, that’s no biggie. But if it’s not just here, now, that’s kind of the mode of responding. What ends up happening is that kids get a disproportionately large dose of attention for all of their misbehaviors and all of their mess ups. And comparatively, no, or very small amounts of attention, or meeting expectations for doing things the right way. And humans are social creatures, we gravitate towards what we get attention for. And so even though it might sound really small, just by bringing that to the awareness of parents, and saying, We want you to start to pay more attention to the things your kids are doing, well, we want you to catch them being good. You want your kids to listen to you the very first time, every time she listens to you, every time he listens to you on the first time, I want you to acknowledge that in a meaningful way. What it does, as kids start to drift towards attention. And so kind of slowly it starts to shift the way that they’re responding. And then for parents, many times they respond, they report that like that permission to like, let go of some of this behavior and focus on the good stuff there kids doing feels really good. That’s something that they they want. Yeah.

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky 32:32
And I’m sure that brings awareness to them, of how much they are actually listening, right? Yeah. Also, they’re also filtering for something bad to happen. So you’re more likely to think that there’s a higher number of that. And this isn’t standing out as much, because you don’t have to be upset about it. So they’re also kind of missing, that they’re actually doing things well, a lot more than they’re perceiving to you that yes,

Jessica Robb Mazzant 32:57
I’d like to underscore you, you nail that that that? Absolutely. It’s like a giving permission to like, feel like you can focus on things that you are grateful for about your kid, that doesn’t mean that mess ups aren’t there. Of course they are. And they’re happening at a higher rate with kids that have ADHD than kids that don’t know that is true. So I don’t want to invalidate the experiences of parents of kids with ADHD. But kids with ADHD are still human beings, and we gravitate towards what we get attention for. And you also said something else that I’d like to expand on if that’s okay with you. So, I think it’s really, really, I hate to use the word natural, but like, it’s understandable is maybe the better word about why some really kind of coercive, or uncomfortable unhealthy patterns can emerge in families. And it’s partly explained by by what you’ve said about how you’re have all of this, like attention, or this hyper vigilance for like, When are things gonna go badly again. So let’s maybe contrast a couple of different patterns that we can see in families. So let’s say you have a kiddo. And parents have to give like, you know, scores, if not hundreds of moments of directions to their kids every day. So I’ll use, you know, my kids as an example, if I say, go grab your shoes, and they go grab their shoes, and start putting them on. And I acknowledge that and I don’t have to, like, you know, have a whole celebration for them for getting a shoe doesn’t have to be like, Oh, you’re the best listener ever. But it can just be like, Hey, thanks for listening, or even just giving them a little wink, or a smile, some kind of acknowledgement. What the kid learns what my my kids will learn is that Things come when I listen, when I follow directions. And what I learned is that my kids are like, these awesome listeners. And, you know, I have the expectation that when I tell them something, they’re gonna follow through with it. Now again, to be to be fair to parents that are, are struggling with kids have a lot of inattention or impulsivity, if I tell a kid to go get their shoes, and then they don’t, and I look over and they’re doing a handstand against the wall, you get frustrated? Totally, I understand. I understand that. But what that can morph into, after a while is developing the expectation that they’re not going to listen to you. And that expectation might be born from real experiences. That is true. Yeah. But what, what that can start to shift into over time is that some parents are like, You know what, my kid only listens to me if I am firm, or harsh or like escalate my own behavior. And so instead of saying, like, hey, get your shoes, they don’t get up and be like, Hey, what did I tell you go get your shoes over time turns into your shoes. That’s the very first thing you’re saying to them. And then if that doesn’t happen, then the behavior, you know, the response really ramps up in ways that feel unhealthy, uncomfortable. And so flipping that script, really, really intentionally can have a big impact, and kind of the harmony within the home,

Parenting strategies and consequences.

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky 36:34
especially if there’s multiple children. Yeah. Because now there’s other things going on, if they’re getting distracted really easily, and you’re running late. And there’s like, it’s just chaos. It sounds like the parent also has a lot of internal work to do around frustration, management and being able to like, ground and calm down and be patient. Because it’s it, you know, it sounds easier said than done. But in the moment, it’s just like, you gotta check yourself as the adult to over and over again. Yeah, it’s

Jessica Robb Mazzant 37:08
it takes a lot of effort to change pattern family. But any amount of effort that we put in, it’s almost always worth it. Not only for the kid, but for the, for the parent or the caregiver, and for the family as a whole. Like, it’s effort well spent.

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky 37:23
And you know, it’s so interesting, it kind of like hits personally like thinking how you’re saying that, they end up doing this negative reinforcement thinking like, this is the only way my child will listen. Right? And like, that’s how my parents kind of raised me after a while, was just being a lot more stern. Oh, she only does things when there’s negative reinforcement. So that’s the way it’s gonna go. That’s what I got to bring to the table. Yeah, yeah. And so the expectation is, like, I don’t want to mess up because I don’t want to feel shamed or yelled at not because I want to do a good job of getting in trouble. Yeah,

Jessica Robb Mazzant 37:57
I want to avoid this aversive interaction that’s gonna come. And

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky 38:01
I’m wondering if the parents, I mean, they’re trying their best, right? Like if that they’re also being conditioned, if that’s the only way they get their child’s attention, is they finally do the thing after being yelled at or raising their voice? And it’s like, oh, it’s working.

Jessica Robb Mazzant 38:17
I think it all happens really, organically, naturally. And to a level. I don’t mean unconsciously in the way that some people mean, but I mean, like, without noticing, until suddenly, you just are like, Why am I yelling? And then and then you might have to answer the question for yourself. It’s the only thing I know, that works. And that’s what I think is really powerful about when we can work with families is we can say I get it. And I understand. So far, this has been the only thing that works. But let’s come at this with some other strategies, and some other skills. So now you have more tools that will work. And you don’t always have to go back to that thing that you don’t feel good about and your kid doesn’t enjoy experiencing. That

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky 39:07
sounds like one of the main ones is really leaning into that positive reinforcement, trying to catch them do the right thing over and over again. What happens when it doesn’t work? Right, like, or it’s taking a lot longer for that positive reinforcement to work and they’re continuing to do something that’s they’re struggling with time management or disorganization, right, like how to create a consequence that’s not harsh. Jack can help them.

Jessica Robb Mazzant 39:34
Yeah. Well, I think one of the things that’s really important for parents to know at the outset is that we might work on one skill at a time, but we’re not only ever working on just one skill, praising your kid or using positive reinforcement. If that’s the only tool that you’re using. You’re right, it’s not going to be enough. It’s a critical skill, but it’s not the only skill and So we’re gonna work with them on other skills like how to give directions in a way that they’re more likely to be understood how to use reward systems for things that are really hard for your kids. And then we’re also going to work on consequences, but not consequences that are harsh, or make a kid feel shame, but are consequences that are, there’s a phrase that I use a lot, which are natural and logical consequences. So how to use consequences that seem really kind of expected or clear to the kid to teach them, hey, this is the boundary behavior that you’re doing not okay. Here’s the alternative that we want you to do. And here’s why the alternative is better. But yeah, when you break one of those house rules, or when you do something that violates the, you know, autonomy of somebody else, there’s gonna be a consequence for that. But the consequences not going to be demeaning. It’s going to be natural and logical, and kind of matched to the situation. I hate to use this phrase, but it really fits in this, like, the punishment has to fit the crime. Yeah, I hate crime.

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky 41:18
This is for the adults, right? This is for them to get it to understand exactly. That totally makes sense. And it makes me think about, you know, like, if someone is doing something wrong or struggling, you don’t want to continue saving them from it, because then they’re not going to learn the consequence. True. Yes, that’s a great point. So it’s letting them experience that negative consequence, and then feel the natural feelings associated with it. But not you shaming them, and not you screaming at them, as the consequence like that is not the thing that happens because you did something bad? And do you work with any immigrant parents, because this sounds like the hardest thing in the world for them. As an immigrant,

Jessica Robb Mazzant 42:07
I can appreciate that. And, you know, like I said, I am working in the south Florida area. I don’t do much direct work with South Florida and clients right now, as I said, I’m doing more kind of training and supervision. But I’ve done a lot of work in the south Florida community. And yeah, there are a lot of families that have moved to South Florida from other countries, and they bring with them, their expectations, their parenting norms, their cultures, and you have to respect that. You can’t come at people with like, Hey, I’ve got the one way that’s going to work and anything different that you do is automatically wrong. No, there, there are beautiful elements of so many cultures. And I think one of the things that we can do is we can say, Okay, here’s the skill. How do you make this work in a way that’s meaningful for you, for your family, for your community? You don’t have to do it like I do it, you have to do it in a way that feels genuine to you. And it’s more about applying it than it is like doing it in one kind of exact fashion.

Parenting and child development strategies.

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky 43:15
Sure. So customizing it within that within that family. Their level of positive reinforcement. Yeah, it’s gonna look very different than someone else’s. Yeah. This has been really eye opening and insightful.

Jessica Robb Mazzant 43:32
Glad to hear that. Thank you.

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky 43:35
Are there any? Any other tips for whether it’s parents or kids? Do you feel like you’re kind of common that we might not have one over for people who are listening that might be struggling? In this area? Whether it’s like at home helping them or outside of school?

Jessica Robb Mazzant 43:52
Oh, gosh, yeah, there’s, there’s probably so many that it’s hard to even identify one. I’m gonna I’m actually say something a little more broad than specific. I think whenever anybody is making a change, so whether this is a kid learning a skill, or it’s a parent, trying a new strategy, change his heart. It is not something that comes without commitment, or comes without effort. But one of the things I often ask the families that I work with, is that is the effort worth it for you? Would the change what’s going to be the outcome of the change? So don’t think about only you know, if I am, if I use praise, I’ll stay with that example. Once or twice, is my kid gonna suddenly Listen to me? But ask yourself the question, if I start to notice the good things that my A kid does in a meaningful way, I start to connect with them. And I start to listen to the things that are important to them. And I don’t do this just once or twice. But I do it for a couple of weeks. I do it for a couple of months. Heck, I commit to doing it for a year. What impact would that have on your kid? What impact would that have on you? What message are you sending to your family? And depending upon how someone answers those questions, it can really drive home for them, why they’re doing this. And then all of a sudden, that’s their motivation. And whether we’re talking about kids or families, we’re talking about any behavior change. I think questions like that are really important to ask yourself, because when we can identify the reason why, and understand the commitment that we’re making things click in a way that they they wouldn’t if we didn’t have that identified.

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky 46:02
Now, I love that you brought that up, because it’s so true. I think we might get so lost in the day to day or the nitty gritty or the frustration or like the growing pains of change. And we kind of forget what the purpose is and what we’re trying to get to. Like there’s this great book called The why things like Simon Sinek it’s like, start with why. And it always kind of goes back that’s kind of like the anchor of when you might get lost or frustrated or just like, forget why you’re doing what you’re doing is kind of go back to what is your why. So I really love that.

Jessica Robb Mazzant 46:36
I have not read that book, but I need to pretty impactful.

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky 46:42
Yeah. So Jessica is there how can listeners get in contact with you whether they want to work with you or just have you as a guest because you have so much knowledge and wealth on this topic. Thank you get in touch with you know,

Jessica Robb Mazzant 46:56
I would love if people would get in touch with me that sounds amazing. I love talking about this, this stuff. So you know, I I like I said, I’m an associate teaching professor at FIU. So my email address there is J R O BB. So J [email protected]. They could they could shoot me an email. If the people listening though our parents are clients themselves. I personally don’t see clients through FIU. So even if you contacted me there, I’d say Great to meet you. But I’m going to reroute you to somebody that that can help you. If it’s okay, I would like to again mentioned the two organizations that I have worked with, because I think they do such incredible work. So at Florida International University, the same place where I’m a professor, even though I don’t, I don’t do therapy there directly. There’s this amazing center. It’s called the Center for Children and Families. And the website is CCF that fiu.edu and DCF does amazing work not only with kids with ADHD, but also just with child and adolescent mental health in general. So they do work with families that have experienced trauma. They do really cool work with kids that are experiencing anxiety, kids that are experiencing depression, ADHD, all kinds of stuff. That’s a really, really fantastic organization. The other practice that I mentioned that’s in the south Florida area in Coral Gables is called South Florida integrative medicine. And so they have a really user friendly website. They have many psychiatrists, psychiatric nurse practitioners, clinical psychologists, mental health therapists, you know, a lot of just really well informed, great trained people. And so that’s a practice that I think is is just fantastic. I am always refer people there. And so I think that would be a really great practice organization to reach out to for for the type of work that I’ve been mentioning.

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky 49:13
Awesome. Thank you for sharing those resources. We’ll definitely add those in the in the show notes. Yeah, for sure. Jessica, thank you so much for being on for sharing all of this information. This has been really incredible. I really appreciate you. You’re

Jessica Robb Mazzant 49:26
most welcome. And Kara, thank you so much for having me on. I think you have such a way with words. And so when you reflect what I was saying, I’d be like yeah, what you said. I really appreciate that. I felt like we understood each other and that’s lovely. Yeah, you’re

Kira Yakubov Ploshansky 49:47
awesome. So if anyone listening really enjoyed this episode, please remember to like, subscribe and share. Otherwise, this is a wrap